So, I know I'll get slammed for some of this. But I think some of these designations are out of control. They also appear to be regarded as meaningless by the public.
Ok – so by the criteria in my title I could declare more designations than most – since my name is relatively long. But recently I ran into an agent that had the following designations on her card ….”Sally Smith, ABR, GRI, CDPE, CRS, & EPro.” Ya gotta be kidding me! This person has more designation letters then letters in their name. It must be exhausting to write all that after your name!
Personally, I have a problem with designations simply because the testing required doesn’t have any teeth to show that the agent actually learned something. Much of the testing is open book – and sustaining the designation involves paying your way and has nothing to do with learning new skills.
Agents have always wanted to look upon themselves as “professionals.” Often likening themselves to doctors and lawyers and other high-paying professions. A truly skilled agent is indeed worth a great deal. However, how can our “value” be disseminated by the public when “qualifications” are shrouded in a blizzard of inexplicable letters?
Those other professionals that we often choose to intone in the same breath with our own actually utilize degree granting institutions to confer professional or academic degrees upon their candidates. Wow! What a concept! They actually expect the candidate to earn a degree that requires a some amount of academic rigor. Maintaining the degree does not involve a fee. Another unique concept! It may seem strange but my alma mater has not threatened to take away my doctorate just because I didn’t contribute the the alumni association. Once conferred, most degrees actually stay with the candidate. Again – a unique concept.
Its also interesting that most professionals that go through extensive courses of study don’t put every single degree they ever earned at the end of their name. Had I splattered my degrees after my name the way some agents display their designations, it would have turned signing my name a massive ordeal. It would also have looked absurd. Somehow, I can’t imagine calling myself Dr. Ruthmarie G. Hicks, B.A., M.A., M.S., Ph.D. At least not while keep a straight face. In all seriousness, who would do this? Had I put all that gobbledegook on my professional card, I would have been a laughing stock.
So why do agents persist in this? Perhaps we are trying too hard to show that we are serious professionals. But in so doing we actually trivialize our position and make ourselves look foolish. Wouldn’t actually BEING a serious professional be more effective then leaving a blizzard of initials in our wake?
We need to ask ourselves, does any other profession really do this? Perhaps if we want to be taken more seriously, we need to rethink what message it sends when throw designations all over the place like they were confetti. If we don’t, someone will come up with a series of designations that read
Th ISIS ToTaL CraP.
Don’t think it can’t happen.
To Search for Homes and for further information go to my website/blog with free home search at The Westchester View.
I am always happy to answer your questions and you can speak to me directly on my moble phone: 914-374-5529.
© Ruthmarie G. Hicks, http://thewestchesterview.com. All rights reserved.
Ruthmarie,
I don't think I've ever listed all of my designations on a business card or an advertising piece.
For me, there's only two that matter, and they do get listed.
Esq. - as a licensed and practicing attorney, I want to make that clear to people (and the Bar Exam had lots of "teeth")
Broker
I'd rather save space for my web and blog sites!!!!
I've been a....GRI, CPM, PPM, RPM, MPM * my ex-husband suggested I "buy a vowel"....I've cut down to GRI and CPM
When I first entered real estate, I was amazed how many designations exist in real estate, most of which are easy to get with attending a course for a couple of days and annual fees.
Ruthmarie
I have also noticed and wondered why people would use so many designation after their names. The first designation I will read, the second designation I will notice, But after that, to be honest, I think I roll my eyes.
I use the one designation that requires an annual exam and 24 CE every year.
Keep things simple.
Alphabet soup really doesn't mean anything to the general public. I could add others and like you educational designations as well but the only thing that is important is the way we treat our clients and our professionalism.
Ruth Marie, as one of those agents who have multiple designations all I can say to you is that for each designation I took courses and learned a great deal about the subject. The CRS Certified Residential Specialist is excellent with national instructors on subjects such as marketing, finanance, buyers agency and now short sales and foreclosures. It is necessary as well to show a volume of sales to obtain the CRS. I also don't agree with you that the public sees this as meaningless. The public is looking for criteria to determine if their agent is experienced and prefers it not just that the agent says so, designations are an objective way for them to know you have taken the extra step and gotten some advanced training. The ABR Accredited Buyer's Representative is also excellent as I learned loads more than if I gained the knowledge going sale to sale. While you are certainly educated in your previous field until you take some of these courses to say that the testing "has no teeth" is confusing - how would you know?
Well if you get hammered for this I will go down with you. I agree it doesn't take much to get most designations. Some are worthy but most are not
shelton
Hi Brian,
I don't use any of my degrees because they are not relevant. Yours are. A J.D. is something you mention because it adds value. An M.B.A. also makes sense. My B.A. is in music and biology. My M.A. is in molecular and cellular biology, my M.S. in microbiology and immunology and the Ph.D. is the same as the M.S. This is of no value to my clients whatsoever - so I don't put it out there. I actually mentioned them all in a row to show how silly it would look if I put that on a business card.
Hi Wallace,
Cutting them down to those that mean the most to you is generally the best idea. I do see a lot of "designation stuffing" and it is a concern. After about three the initials become totally meaningless. The other issue I have had is "pay to maintain." If we want to be considered "professionals" we should be doing what other professionals do - adding coursework from a degree granting institution that has more rigorous standards for passage. Some people work hard on their designations, others don't. No one in my former field skated into an M.S. or Ph.D. The same holds for a J.D. or M.B.A. The difficulty here is that these are too easily obtained and that fact dilutes or even negates their impact.
Hi Marc,
I found it stunning too. Also the notion that you pay to maintain the designation. This screams "money cow" rather than "education."
Hi Brian,
I agree that an agent might have one or two they like. I have chosen to work on becoming a broker - doing it now and not worry so much about designations. If they are that easy to get, they aren't worth that much.
Hi Cindy,
How have you been? I don't know that this means much to the public at all. No one has ever asked me about designations - ever. Most don't understand the difference between an agent and broker or associate broker. So the designations would be far down the list. But that's my experience, it may be different elsewhere.
Hi Miriam,
I have no doubt that you would apply yourself to every designation that you earned. Trouble is that many wouldn't and there lies the fly in the ointment. My suggestion would be to turn these into actual courses at the college level with exams that make some sense. That way those that apply themselves get the designation - and those that don't fail. It may seem like splitting hairs, but other professions do it this way and if we want this to truly be a "profession" and not a catch -all...stepping it up a notch in this way would be good for the industry.
Hi Shelton,
Probably that is what sticks in my craw. If anyone can get one, then why is it worth having? There is a lot of generalized "education bashing" in the real estate industry generally - and particularly on AR. The bashing has to do with a disdain for formal education.
Well folks, don't knock what you don't KNOW! If most of your life has been spent getting a real estate license and gathering letters to tag on at the end of your name, its small wonder you hold true education in contempt. Fact is, you never experienced it or recognized it for what it has to offer. Getting a higher degree is not the "easy way out." Far from it. A true education hones skills and teaches you how to THINK and process often conflicting information. It is rigorous and exhausting. Doctoral candidates usually put in about 70 hours a week for YEARS. The are thrown into a vipers pit of "peer review" every few months for shaking out that most here would run and hide from. This sort of thing is not for wimps.
In truth, I would say that business skills are of a "softer nature" than what I went through in science. There are a few who don't need the formal education. But those are few and far between. People like Katerina Gassett come to mind as unique self-starters. My Grandfather was like that too. He was able to "just do it" but that was also a different time. Formalizing the training wouldn't take anything from these people. But it is a matter of raising the bar so that there are some standards below which one can not pass through. For science and engineering - there really isn't any other way. If you want to design life-saving drugs - you have to go to school for many years. No way around that.
If we want this to be PROFESSION - we have to be PROFESSIONAL and that includes a higher education.
Ruthmarie - Although I hold many designations - I agree with you! Most of the designations I "earned" were trivial hurdles to jump, and mean nothing to the general public. The "value" lies in the camaraderie between those that hold the same designation, translation - referrals.
IMHO - the most valuable designations/certifications - and I mean most because I have no intention of trivializing the others that I hold - are the CRS, CRB and CRP,
Ruthmarie,
Congratulations on the feature! I like what you said in your last comment: "Don't knock what you don't know!"
Mike in Tucson
The consumer can get lost or intimidated with all the initials. Having to many could be a bad thing.
Ruthmarie,
I was waiting for that post for a long time. Even for me, the insider, those abbreviations make no sense. I recognize CRS, GRI, and CCIM. But public does not and should not.
The attempts to "educate" the public on the value of those are ridiculous at best
From the desk of David Dee,
Ruthmarie, I recently received a business card which had the similar designations shown from your post. Sometimes, I feel that it detracts from the business card with so many alphabets. Most people are familiar with a real estate agent and a broker. Good post. :D
I have had a few of my clients ask me what the designations are for...my reply "I take the business of real estate very seriously and I have taken extra steps in/out of the classroom to represent you to the best of my ability!" Some people really do appreciate the effort! The Certified Residential Specialist (CRS) is by far the most comprehensive/professional designation that I have ever received!
Do the clients really even know what half of these designations even mean ? I think not.
Oh no . . . I have a few . . .
I think the agents who would rather learn than do just get positively sweaty over these stupid designations, none of which make a lick of sense to the client base.
I completely agree. I can write a few of yours after my name, but why? Even the lowest ranked doctor candidate that graduates still graduates and becomes a doctor. I tend to find that people who write out their "credentials" as you described tend to lack real life credentials and experience to impress, so they try to use smoke and mirrors.
Hi Ruthmarie. While I can understand your concern... how does that affect you? I learned a lot from the GRI courses and am presently enrolled in courses for a CCIM while finishing up my JD. If people don't like them then don't get them. Is it THAT competitive in your area that you berate those who have designations???
Also like Miriam asked... how would you know they are useless if you do not have one? Also... how would you know what degree(s) someone does or does not have? Unless your premise is that many realtors ® are uneducated thus need an education like a college education. The GRI was a pretty tough intense course... but then how would you know?
However I agree that the bar should be raised. In Florida they have raised it a bit and made the exam MUCH tougher but again... how would you know?
Congrats on the feature though it seems illogical considering you do not have any except for a PhD which has some value for some people.
Ruthmarie thank you, thank you, thank you. A comment that I make often on AR is that I wish people would stop comparing us to doctors, lawyers, accountants and other degreed professionals. I often wondered how insulted I would be if I spent 10 plus years getting a well earned degree and then only being compared to a an agent or broker who spends mear weeks getting licensed. I don't mean to diminish our professionalism or our worth as agents and brokers, but sometimes it does appear that we are begging for respect and become laughing stocks as a result of our overzealous quest to get it.
As for the initials, you are dead on as far as how the public perceives the designations (meaningless). However, I do believe that they are valuable when being considered for referrals by a fellow broker or agent.
Well said and much respect to you for saying it.
The only designations that matter are the one's that a consumer will immediately recognize. I love that you labeled them Designation Junkies and Alphabet Soup!
I only wish I knew who I was talking to: http://activerain.com/blogsview/1463284/do-you-have-a-profile-picture-can-i-see-it-
Hi Tony,
I think the problem is that when they become this easy to obtain - they become trivialized. To be valued, they have to be hard to obtain.
Thanks Mike,
Education is being trivialized and now we are paying the price as a society. I bailed out of my former field simply because I had to be able to pay the bills. They long education - which IS necessary to do what I was doing - rapidly became a commodity and employment went to the lowest bidder. It bacame a race to the bottom. We are starting to pay the price now when we look for the next geneartion of innovaters..OH WAIT!! They all went to Wall Street or into sales! Many here trivialize education "because the school of hard knocks works best." Ummmm not if you are designing a rocket or an airplane. Would you want a physician to learn by "trial and error"? How about someone who makes vaccines or biological agents? I think not. There are some things for which extensive educations are essential - and what it takes to get such an education should not be poo-pooed.
Hi Roland,
It can be quite dizzying. I know we love to abbreviate in this county - but please! The other issue is that when there are SO many, they lose their value.
Hi Jon,
It really doesn't work does it? Education works if it is true education. But it just seems like too many people take these classes -sleep through them - and take nothing away. Then how do you tell the difference between those that actually DID apply themselves. It degenerates the whole process - whether the recipient worked at it or not.
Thanks David,
I'm seeing a lot of this...soon people are going to need a font size so small people will need a magnifying glass.
Hi Stephen,
I think most people value the GRI and CRS the most.
Hi Carla,
Nothing wrong with having them. I just think that if you have a huge string of letters after your name it makes iittle sense in the scheme of things to the client.
Hi Bob and Carolin,
I don't think they have a clue as to what they mean. Most people want to know that I know what I am doing. They want someone who KNOWS the neighborhoods they are interested in and what is what.
Hi Aaron,
I don't think it matters either. But there are those who associate it with successful agents in the area. However, I would venture that in order to AFFORD the designation, you would have to achieve a level of success to keep paying the fees. So the association with "success" might have nothing to do with having the class under your belt.
Hi Aaron Silverman -
Actually degrees such as an M.S. or M.D. or J.D. are quite valuable. It has to do with academic RIGOR invoked for passage. Most M.D. candiates make it through the program. However, I can promise you it is an exhausting process. Getting IN to medical school is also extremely difficult. They are in a pressure cooker for several years The J.D. has a fairly high failure/attrition rate as doesn the Ph.D. in my field attrition was about 60% - people either couldn't handle the load or were "asked" to leave. I won't even discuss how hard it was to get in. Maybe 15% of the population was capable of gaining entrance to such a program. About 40% are accepted but they had to pass through undergrad which eliminates about 70% of all candidates. The attrition rate in science and engineering is very, very high. When I teach (and I do sometimes) the student's either hit the mark that I set or they FAIL. That failure rate enhances the value of the degree earned. It's valuable because not EVERYONE is capable of attaining it.
Degrees from universities are more rigorous and that's my objection here. Basically, i don't see a FAILURE RATE in these designations. You sit in a chair - are given an open book exam - you pay the money and its a done deal. Now if you had even a 20% failure rate - the desigination might actually be worth something. But I don't see any true academic rigor. This is why I think so many in the real estate business deride education as "the easy way out." In real estate it IS too easy. When something is so easy that almost anyone can do it - how does that make you special? it doesn't. Hence the lack of value.
Hi Lana,
See my comments above. The doctoral that I have I DON'T use in my work as an agent. Nor any of my other degrees. I see no purpose in it as it is in an unrelated discipline. If I had a J.D. that would be different. I mentioned them to show how totally idiotic it looked to have that long string of letters after my name. NO ONE in my field does that. They use their highest degree and that's it.
If almost ANYONE can obtain it - then its value is lost. I want to see truly rigorous education being required. This doesn't cut the mustard at all. In fact it IS the fact that I have been through a rigorous education that allows me to recognize this for what it really is - a money cow.
The trouble here is that we always liken ourselves to doctors and lawyers and then we throw flurry of designation initials around that were pretty easy to come to "prove" our worth. Since anyone can do - all we have done is proven that we have no idea what a true professional course of study really is.
Ruth Marie, there are college level degrees in Real Estate and perhaps that is something you would be interested in. Please take a designation course and see where the bar is and then revisit this post. These designation courses are not four year college degrees and do not pretend to be so to compare them is not correct. These designation courses say that I care about my business, I want to take advantage of whatever training and information is out there and learn what I can, in a classroom, and not on the publics nickle, which is what you are doing by not taking any of these designation courses. Take the ABR and see. To put down individuals who put in the time and take the trouble to learn says more about you than anything else. You feel a need to put down these individuals. There is no failure rate because only a small percentage of licensed agents take the time to attend these courses and the ones who do take these courses are there because they want to learn.
Hi Charita,
I actually feel that many agents are well worth the title of "professional." The difficulty is that these standards are so lax - determining who is "professional" and who is not is a crap shoot for the client. They earned that over time. Time in the field is a great teacher - however - how many clients have to suffer through the "learning process" with an agent who has received no true formal training. If we had a degree program - this would rid us of a lot of the fortune hunters and the intellecutally challenged. But we don't. And NAR as well as brokerages like the status quo - so I'm not holding my breath.
I like the challenge of learning the different specialty designations. I've made the effort to stay abreast of information in my profession.
Loved this! I had a buyer client last year give me a card that she had from another agent (given to her at an open house.) She quite seriously asked me "What do all those letters mean after her name?" The designation symbols and letters went on for 2 lines on her card.. The buyer client just shook her head and said "Does she think we know what it all means???"
Hard to imagine that folks would decide to use them because of initials. About the only ones i look at would be the folks with a MD after their name (medical doctor)
Hi Miriam,
At this point I'm getting my brokerage license. However, unless there is more rigorous selection, I don't see the value. What we need - to create true professionalism is create an elimination process by which a lot of people fall off the train. My business plan is to spend where I do see value and not where I don't. There is always someone trying to get me to fork up for something. Many of these designations require yearly fees that I am absolutely unwiling to pay on an ongoing basis. You get a degree from a school, they don't take it away from you if you won't pay a bunch of fees. That's a money pit that I'm unwilling to partake in.
I'm not denegrating, but it trivializes the work that you and others like you did that anyone who is willing to pay can get a designation no matter how little they applied themselves.
Hi Cheryl
I think you can learn as much on-line and by reading...but some prefer formal courses. Once again, the continuing fees and the lack of rigor are what keep me away.
Hi Kris,
I'm seeing a lot of that around here too. I have nothing against education, but to me this has become a money cow. Taking education SERIOUSLY means a serious education in which you get a degree that you KEEP whether you pay yearly or not. The other thing is that I've never heard of anyone FAILING a designation. That's a problem. Those who worked hard on them can not be separated from those who skated by.
Hi Tony,
M.D., J.D. (Esq) an M.B.A. and a doctorate (Ph.D.) require a lot of work. When I teach I DO use the Ph.D. They aren't all equal of course.
Ruthmarie. For the agents that put all those designations behind their name, I wonder if any of them have done a survey of their clients or friends to ask them if they know what they acctually stand for.
38 comments and not one person has stated the obvious.
This post was written by DR RUTH(marie).
Get with it, people.
-J. Philip Faranda, AAGG (all around great guy)
Ruthmarie:
I don't think it is a battle of a college education vs. real estate credentials. These two are entirely different animals. However, I think all of our education is relevant and should be in our profile.
When I first started in this business I went through many courses and got a number of designations, ABR, GRI, e-PRO. They actually boosted my self-confidence as a beginner and I think they can be truly helpful to someone who does not have much experience. But, eventually, it is your experience, knowledge of the area and client testimonials that matter more than the initials after your name.
Personally I use them because I am the only one in my local area with them, pays dividends in a rural market. Since each comes with an annual fee attached, I stopped at ABR, CRS, and GRI.
I got a bunch but om marketing myself, I don't use anything that cannot be easily translated as a benefit to a potential client.
I agree that most deignations are not worth the paper they are printed on. I just attended a Short Sale and Foreclosure class and I don't feel qualified to handle one after receiving the designation. The only classes that I think hold their merit are the CRS classes. I agree that once you receive the designation, that should be it and that no additional fees should be charged to maintain it. Funny, about them taking away your PhD if you don't pay a yearly fee :)
The only designation a majority of the public recognizes is if your a broker. I think you can def. get something out of all these classes which is beneficial, professionally and for your clients. BUT, yea what docter or other professional industry puts a gazillion designations next to their name?
I have worked in two markets: Toronto, ON and Greensboro, NC. There's a regional difference...
In Toronto some agents with a university degree or other non-related professional designations make sure to add them after their names (I did it too when I was there, haha)...screaming: "I'm a pharmacist", "I'm an engineer" and/or have a "BSc, MBA", "PhD". I've also seen some that deliberately state that, because of the discipline required to obtain those degrees, this will "help in negotiating the best real estate deal for you". I've also seen this one: "As a former CEO of my former firm I can help you because I have negotiated multi-million dollar deals". That is the least humble market I've seen. Occassionally, I do see a real estate designation such as the Canadian FRI (= GRI).
In NC they avoid adding their earned degrees. But, they're big on adding a string of real estate designations. No one in the public knows what they are and frankly, no one bothers to ask. No one has asked me about my CRS designation (in response to Lisa #38).
I have a university degree (BA) and I simply put Broker/CRS. The CRS is for other agents to basically recognize I've done enough transactions to have earned it (and after paying for courses and membership, of course). The BA means nothing so I don't bother (it is part of my website's resume though, if anyone cares to read about me). I may consider getting my GRI one day or a Short Sales designation...only because I want to keep learning.
I'm with Claudette in #40 that designations can be a confidence/knowledge booster for newbies. As others have said: in the end it's your experience/testimonials/service/soft skills that matter.
I agree with both sides of this debate. I have some and don't think the public understands them at all. If nothing else though, it implies that we are supplementing our education and considering many think anyone with a pulse can get a R.E. license, that it can provide some level of acknowledgement that the bearer is investing in additional education. I have learned from each of the courses I've attended, but agree that a yearly fee to have the right to bear the designation is ridiculous.
Funny comments on both sides. I can just hear all the toes getting stepped on :-)
Hi Ruth. I can understand that. However I had my husband who is a degreed mechanical engineer sit for the class and the exam. He thought it was rigorous and he is a senior design engineer with 20 years of experience.
As for the public "not knowing." Ahhh the power of Google. I think that some people underestiimate the power of the public's ability to look up "GRI" "CRS" "CIPS" etc. to find out.
A PhD is rigorous work and takes time, money, and energy. I have read some of your works elsewhere and it seems as though you were disenfranchised with the pay inequity. Thus your premise that we be more educated seems a bit presumptious considering that you obviously left after being educated due to some inequity and/or unfairness so why are you advocating that this profession model an education system that you were a part of then decided to leave.
Like Miriam stated above, "To put down individuals who put in the time and take the trouble to learn says more about you than anything else."
~ Lana
Ruth, First I commend you on your education. Three advanced degrees! I am guilty as charged. I advertise the ABR and GRI and my MBA. I'm also a broker and licensed instructor. The consumer cares not a whit but the gaudy apulets are an effective "bully repellent" for other real estate agents who may confude me for a rookie.
It is a way for the associations make big money! I do not agree with having to show all these designation. You should be proud of them but everyone does not need to know about them. Be a professional in your business and it will show to your clients.
Hi Lisa,
Don't know whether peope ask. Here is an interesting issue though. To those who don't have designations - or don't have them displayed - are not going to receive phone calls from prospects to whom this matters. So although I have not had anyone ask me about them, I have to assume that if this sort of thing mattered to a client, they wouldn't be calling me in the first place. Its the same line of thinking that states those who have designations are more "successful." In all liklihood, if you are going to pay for the designation, you have achieved some level of success already. One would have to do a survey of the public in general to see if this mattered.
I agree with you. The public neither knows or cares what those letters mean. Heck, Realtors don't know what half of them mean.
I value education no matter how basic or advanced it is. People who have designations devoted time, effort, money, and some brain cells to pass them. Only a small percentage of agents in my area alone bother to earn them for one reason or another. FYI, I have yet to pass one with an open book exam.
If professionals choose to pay annually to maintain their designations, it's their prerogative to do so. If they choose to list all their designations after their name, so long as they're earned, it's their business. The reflection is on them, not on the industry, & certainly not on you, nor me.
One thing I noticed though, it doesn't matter how advanced the degrees achieved, some who have them didn't learn how to be graceful.
BTW wouldn't Dr. Ruthmarie G. Hicks, B.A., M.A., M.S., Ph.D. be redundant, unless you're also an M. D.?
Ruthmarie,
I once had a person ask me what CRS stood for. At his office (a car dealership), it stood for something entirely different! I spent a lot of time and money earning my designations and I have learned a lot from each class I attended, not to mention friends I have made for life. I am better able to serve my clients because of what I've learned. I guess I'm a junkie!
kp
Educating yourself in your area of expertize is great and a necessityto stay on top of things in our industry. If I am not on an inspection, I am marketing, and if I am not marketing, I am learning more. I take courses to increase my knowledgeso I can provide a hard degree quality to my clients. Many of the courses have designations I could use, but at the end of the day do I want to clutter up my business cards or letterhead with anything that will detract from attracting their business.
View aspect of your business from the clients side of the fence, not from your side. Keep it simple.
The only designation I'm going after is GRI. The truth is, I won't have to pay dues every year just to use it. I have also been thinking about ePro. I do agree clients do not care. However sometime referrals do.
I am 100% on board with you Ruthmarie.
I have taken designation classes, but have no desire to use the initials or pay the fee. Each class has been good, but I wouldn't call them RIGOROUS. Not at all.
Also, I have advanced degrees and have taught at the university level. Now, besides being a BROKER, I am the licensing instructor at Penn State - Schuylkill.
I have earned designation (e-certified, CDPE, at home with diversity, etc) and have no intention of adding them to my card.
BROKER is the only "designation" that really stands for anything in the public's eyes.
NAR certainly has a money-maker with its slew of paid designations.
They are having a similar discussion over on Liinkedin regarding the ABR designation. No one is saying that we should not continue to educate ourselves to best serve the public. What is being said, is that the designations once earned should be ours to keep like our High School Diploma, college degrees, etc.. Having to pay for the right to use them is absurd. I am of the opinion that a two day course with minimal standards of passing - everyone that takes the course passes it - is a ridiculous measurement of placing initials at the end of your name. I have spent more time in seminars and and workshops than the requirement for being a short sale expert or that required to use the initials designated by NAR. If you think the general public will think more highly of you then great - pay your annual dues, use the initials. But, don't expect me to think you know more than an agent that does not parade around with "look at me" business cards. I will seek out council from those that know the business without claiming to be the expert.
Ruthmarie, you miss the whole point and all of the referrals that come with designations. It is a business decision, it is a decision to not learn by trial and error on the public. The bar is very high only 5% of agent nationally hold the CRS designation, the rest don't even attempt it.
Ruthmarie, you miss the whole point and all of the referrals that come with designations. It is a business decision, it is a decision to not learn by trial and error on the public. The bar is very high only 5% of agent nationally hold the CRS designation, the rest don't even attempt it.
Ruthmarie, you miss the whole point and all of the referrals that come with designations. It is a business decision, it is a decision to not learn by trial and error on the public. The bar is very high only 5% of agents nationally hold the CRS designation, the rest don't even attempt it.
Ruthmarie, you miss the whole point and all of the referrals that come with designations. It is a business decision, it is a decision to not learn by trial and error on the public. The bar is very high only 5% of agents nationally hold the CRS designation, the rest don't even attempt it.
Ruthmarie, you miss the whole point and all of the referrals that come with designations. It is a business decision, it is a decision to not learn by trial and error on the public. The bar is very high only 5% of agents nationally hold the CRS designation, the rest don't even attempt it.
I agree with Gregory above.
Miriam, I can promise you I'll look to an AR agent to refer business to before I'd look at a CRS directory. And yes, I just let my CRS membership lapse.
Hi Ruthmarie!
I'm going to tread carefully here, because I happen to be Education Chair for the Wisconsin Chapter of the Council of Residential Specialists.
I understand the skepticism of some in our industry about designations, particularly those that have no sales production requirement.
I also feel that many who call themselves "real estate educators" have little in the way of classroom teaching experience. I have met many real estate instructors who were strong in their people skills (I refer to these folks as "charm school graduates") yet very weak when it comes to delivering the course curriculum. Real estate education seems to attract a lot of motivational speakers who remind me of televangelists!
As someone who spent nearly twenty years teaching at colleges, I see little resemblance between what a college professor offers and what the vast majority of "real estate educators" do.
I like the CRS for a number of reasons. I do at least half a dozen referrals a year from all over the United States, thanks to my CRS connection. At CRS events, I meet agents who are, in general, more conscientious, more driven and more successful. That does not mean one cannot succeed and thrive without earning the CRS or another designation.
The CIPS requires a series of classroom instruction, proof of sales production with international/multicultural clients, foreign language skills and related experience. Like the CRS, this is a worthy designation.
The At Home With Diversity certification is valuable and the course is tremendously important. The AHWD curriculum teaches the value of diversity and the need for sensitivity when dealing with other cultures in a real estate transaction.
Paying to maintain a designation is pointless, unless there is ongoing value to the designee. This is one reason why we work so hard in our State CRS Chapters to keep providing that value.
While I love ActiveRain, I believe selecting a referral partner based solely upon the fact that they blog and comment here would reflect very poorly upon the referring agent in the eyes of a client.
Hi Claudette,
The purpose should be to impart enough knowledge so that you can work with confidence and be effective. It should also be there to eliminate those who are incapable of same and there should be no yearly fees attached. If those issues that are in bold are not attended to - the designation loses its value.
Does anyone know how many agents FAIL at these designations. Unfortunately, you need a definite rate of failure or weeding out for this to mean much of anything. I'm not seeing these issues being taken seriously. If people think that taking a designation that literally everyone who signs up ends up "passing" - makes them more "professional" they are kidding themselves.
This isn't about feeling more confident - its about being more competent and for that to be more than mere preception - the designation has to have some teeth. The way it is set up makes it too easy for people to use as window dressing.
Hi Mary,
If it works for you...fine....
One of the problems is that we try to liken ourselves to lawyers and accountants and the like and some use the designations to "prove" said professionalism. But lawyers and accountants jumped through many, many more academic hoops than any real estate agent ever had to. In my former field much of the course work either laid a foundation or taught us how to function. Although there was no substitute for hands-on experience, the practical aspects were addressed in a way so that you could function well.
I don't see this in a lot of real estate classes and designatinos. For example, I know someone who took a CDPE and felt no more capable of handling a foreclosure than they did before they took the class. They knew more of what they didn't know - but this sort of thing is a real issue. The course is just a couple of days long. Look at any of the bloggers who deal with short sales on this forum and tell me you can be an expert in a few days.
I use this as an example because people who are trying to sell short are often in serious trouble. How can they separate the wheat from the chaff when we confuse them with designations that are just a couple of days long.
Hi Joe,
That's reasonable..you need to sift what is of true value and what is fluff.
Hi Mark,
Thanks for the input - I think CRS and GRI are the two most valued of the designations. Yeah - they don't put you out to pasture if you don't pony up after you earned the doctorate. THis is why that whole concept of paying to keep what is supposed to be an educational achievement makes no sense to me. It's also funny that I mentiioned the CDPE prior to reading your comment. As I said before, the people who need that kind of help are serious trouble and deserve someone who can actually do the job.
Hi Athina,
I wouldn't use my degrees, they aren't relevant at all. If you have a business or law degree, that's another matter. There are simply too many designations and its become more of a cash cow than it is of true value to the client.
Hi Lana,
Now YOU are denegrating. No, I'm doing quite well, thank you very much - and I'm doing so without spending money on something I don't believe is of true benefit to me or my clients. In fact, I'm probably doing better than many people who have a string of letters tagged onto their name. I have a business plan and that doesn't include forking out hard-earned money to pay for the privilege of initials that took maybe two days to obtain. There are other things I can spend money on that are of more direct benefit to my buyers and sellers alike.
The point here is that education itself is being trivialized by this method. That a two day class in some cases should supposedly give the recipient such and "edge" in knowledge is on its face - absurd. That you should continually PAY to show the world that you sat in a class for two days is even more absurd. It devalues true education and when we try to say we are professional and hold this sort of thing up as an example - it doesn't help us - it in fact hurts us.
If we want to be considered "professionals" its time our education reflected what other professions require.
Hi Andrew,
Haven't seen you recently - I don't think that having a couple of designations is a problem. My concern is people who point to it as a sign of true "professional" accreditation. Many push these as evidence of professionalism on the level of a business or law degree. That simply isn't true. Certainly using your M.B.A. is very appropriate. I'd look downright silly using ANY of my degrees. I use them only when I teach - and then only the one that counts - which is always the highest degree conferred. I'm going after the one designation that matters in this field BROKER.
Hi Sajay,
That's sound advice.
Hi Stephen,
I agree that this can easily be a money cow of gargantuan perportions. If you want designations - go after one or two the make sense for your business plan. But don't fool yourself into thinking that piling on the initials makes you more professional. After a while it just looks silly.
Hi Karen,
"Implied" is the operative word. In most educational situations that professionals are engaged do more than imply dedication. They are geared to increase credentials in a tangible way.
Hi Jenna,
Yes, I hear toes being stepped on...but thats the nature of debate. I have my own business plan - I'd rather spend the money on my clients! I am also willing to spend on coaching...but not designations that I don't feel offer enough education and ask you to pay forever.
Hi Ann,
I think most of us know what they are - but the public - not so much. My concern is more about the validity of the courses. DO they actually qualify the agent for what they claim to - CDPE being an example I sighted as being an area far too complex and intricate to really develop true expertise in the limited time frame granted for the "course."
Hi Yolanda,
IF you don't think that this sort of thing doesn't wash off on the entire industry you are dreaming. "SOME brain cells?" That's part of the problem. Most are admitting that there is no discrimination between those who truly appied themselves and those who skated through. That's always true if you have an almost ZERO failure rate. That's not professional at all. Professionals have standards which some can't meet. Passing an academic weeding out process is part of what being professional is. The public generally considers agents overpaid and undereducated. Some of the stuff you see with people adding a string of designations that took a few days to earn as a symptofm of same.
Paying for the designation to continue IS a problem - a big one. By its nature it shows that the designation is in part being generated in order to keep the money flowing in.
Oh and the "Dr." plus the "Ph.D." was to emphasize the absurdity of it all.
Hi Brian,
I too believe in keeping it as simple as possible. Who needs to have letterhead cluttered and business cards with an unending stream of letters in it.
Hi Betty & John,
Being selective makes sense. Define what you want to do with your business model and select a designation or two -but don't go crazy.
Hi Erica,
You have quite a background. I think putting selective education on your card makes sense. It's when people tout their professionalism with a string of designations that I start to shake my head. I have to ask whether these people understand what it means to have a "real" education from a degree granting institution. I think a lot of people who have not gone the "education route" in college/grad school think its easy, because this is all they know. A college class is a very different animal from a designation course.
Hi Gregory,
THanks for the sanity check. I never said peope shouldn't take the classes. What I am saying is pretty much what you said - that as it sits now - that designations are a very poor measure of professionalism. The amount learned from these classes will vary wildly from individual to individual - so using them as measurement of competence is dubious at best.
Hi Miriam,
The statistic isn't that impressive unless a good percentage that do attempt it fail to pass. Many choose not to take the class becasue it doesn't fit their business plan. How many people actually fail a designation class? If the answer is "no one" then it isn't a valid measure.
Hi Eric,
I think its more a matter of what in the way of achievement does the designation measure. Some designations might be worth having, but personally, when virtually no one ever fails and when you have to pay for the privilege of maintaining the designation - it diultes its meaning to almost nothing.
True - alot of instructors can't teach. We have our share in academe. One of my most memorable expereinces was having a professor of biology who had such a thick accent, you could only manage to make out ever third or fourth word! As far as real estate educators are concerned, many of them are televangelists - they gave up that gig and went into real estate because God told them to!
Very thought provoking post. I popped over after seeing the link on Jon Zolsky's blog post.
Here in my neck of the woods in Ontario, Canada we aren't very big on designations. I see a few such as SRES for senior real estate specialist, ABR, accredited buyer representative, one for a staging program, (sorry can't remember the letters) and others that are handed out by different real estate companies such as luxury home specialist, etc.
We all have to take 24 continuing education credits every two years in order to renew our registration. I think there are lots of other ways to show your professionalism to consumers than letters behind your name.
I got my Broker's license and am a past president of our real estate board. Sitting on committees in your community or with your local or state real estate association is not only a great leadership learning experience but you are also volunteering, networking and not stuffing anyone else's pockets with your hard earned money.
I see both sides of this argument. First, education is important and more education, all things being equal, is better than less. Moreover, if I were going to refer my 84 year old mother to someone, it would be to someone who, like Miriam, has a Senior Specialist designation because I think that has value.
However, I think Ruthmarie's point, that having initials trail an agent's name like a comet is silly, is valid. First, 99% of the public has no idea what the significance of the designations are. Secondly, it could be a tad misleading for someone to have initials after their name just because they passed a 20-hour course when most people probably assume that initials indicate some sort of higher education degree. I recall my mother (who has a masters from Columbia, by the way) reading the promotional material for a college prep tutor who had "MA" after his name and remarking that such a move was absurd. My Mom did have "RN" after her name when it was called for. My father had an MBA from NYU. He never used the letters. Upon occasion, he'd sign his name with "notary public" at the end for a laugh.
I've always thought that the letters following a name should be used sparingly, if at all, unless they are MD or PhD. Note that lawyers, who are JD's, seldom use it. I think the right things to do would be to have the word "Designations:" on your card and have the letters follow that instead of the name. Then you can go to town with the alphabet soup without exposing yourself to the skeptics among us.
Hi Again Eric,
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I think your "motivational speakers that remind me of televngelists" form of instructor has been part of what I am talking about. I have had a belly full of that in the last 4 years and I see more of the same in some of the designations. There were severeal deisgnations that I was interested in initially - which focussed on what I wanted to offer clients. The first was going to be Epro... Well I looked up Epro and found out roughly what it "taught" and was horrified. The second was something on distressed properties. Distressed sales are hitting our market now (belatedly) But on those courses I was getting a lot of mixed reviews and what I also got back was that most of it was geared getting clients - not helping them out of the mess they are in. That's getting the cart before the horse. I saw comments scattered around that indicated most of these classes were only a couple of days of work. How much can you learn about HOW to help sellers when the emphasis is lead generating and the whole thing is only 16 hours long? Both of these designations should require "updating." Maybe a few hours every year for distressed properties because handling them is a moving target and a couple of hours of updating for Epro yearly. These are the examples that I had looked into because I considered them relevent to my market.
Hi Phil,
This is a sensible approach to designations. Have a couple of them that you feel are worthwhile. Add to your name where appropriate and avoid the "comet tail" that you mention. I think designations have become a real money maker for the powers that be and that the original purpose has been lost. In most education in our field lead generating truly trumps customer care and that is a big mistake.
Ruthmarie: I know several people who have practically an entire can of alphabet soup listed after their name. To me... it just smacks of some sort of inferiority complex. Occasionally when met by such a seemingly endless set of "designations"... I just sit and chuckle... wondering if they have ever had the time to actually have a closing. Great post... I feel the same way, as well.
Hi Karen Anne,
I'm glad to see that AR's "moral compass" is not one of the one's casting stones. Some now think I am the devil incarnate for this position. But I feel that this type of thing can make us look very foolish in the eyes of the public....
Ruthmarie: Not sure about that moral compass stuff... but I digress. In a way, I will edge just a tad closer to a "middle ground" here. I think that perhaps when an agent with multiple alphabet soup designations might be writing to a group of similar agents... most of whom may also value their own bowl of alphabet soup... that listing the designations after one's name may be fine.
I also think that out of all of them, even though many of them are very worthwhile... that if I had a bunch of them myself, I would only list the CRS. It is my feeling that the CRS designation may be the most respected.
But... the whole point of MY above comment... is trying to imagine how or what the general public may think when they see an agent's name followed by several ladle's of alphabet soup stuff. I would guess that the majority of them simply want someone who can treat them fairly, and sell their home for a good price.
It reminds me of the saying... paraphrasing here... "I don't care about how much you "know," I just want to know that you really "care."
By the way... your Tomato Blog is probably the best one I have ever seen... and I have seen quite a few. I am impressed !
Hi Karen Anne,
I agree that the CRS is the most valuable. I think that most clients only want someone who is capable of selling a home. But the alphabet soup that you describe is inexplicable to most and some of these designations are of dubious value. The ones that take one or two days and are renewed with a fee - are probably not worth the money and perhaps not the time - although that seems to be minimal.
For those with REALTOR designations ...
Did NAR (National Association of Realtors) disclose to you before you took the class that you would need to pay them every year to rent your designation?
Did NAR disclose the additional annual fee when they advertised this class?
Did NAR disclose to you how much the annual renewal fee would be before you took the class?
We are talking ethics here, are we not?
No one I know with a designation knew about these extra fees. Why is that?
Why would NAR fail to disclose annual fees, as they advertise these designations? Could it be becuase you would not take their classes?
Please email me with your NAR concerns: Seattlebroker1@aol.com
Demand your NAR refund today!
Thanks!
It doesn't matter if they disclose it or not. The point is that if it is truly a qualification - some CE should be attached to the yearly fee. That's how MOST educational designations and degrees work. If not - its just a money cow. You need look no further then the comments on the thread of agents that said they dropped designations due to the cost to know the fees exist.
Ruthmarie: I saw this post this morning, and thought you might get a kick out of it. Houston Realtor Earns 10th Designation - Certified Negotiation Expert . I can just tell in advance how jealous you're going to be... LOL.